Wow! I'm amazed at how many apparently intelligent people have suddenly become interested in my blog!
It's important, first of all, to understand my statements in my previous posting. The boundary lines that are clearly drawn in history are that those who do not accept Trinitarian theology are outside the framework of historic Christianity. That is simply objectively true. If you disagree with that statement, you simply are ignorant of the history of orthodoxy. There have always been dissenters, but they've never been considered part of the mainstream of orthodoxy.
Secondly, I made the statement that those who do not acknowledge that the Jesus of the Bible is their Lord are in grave danger. Paul's statement in Galatians 1:8-9 is very clear and pointed. He was clear that Jesus is and was fully God, and that to be outside that, and to proclaim another gospel, is to be accursed. Strong language, and dissenters must face it and deal with it.
Jesus said it best: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. . . ."All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. (John 10:1,8-9)
Third, the councils that gave rise to the great creeds, primarily the Nicene creed, were ecumenical councils, and did not give rise to the unique (and erroneous) parts of Catholic theology. Thomas Oden, in his wonderful work "The Word Of Life," (HarperSanFrancisco, 1989) clearly lines out the record of the historic councils on the matter of Christology. You'll find it very helpful.
In the fourth place, this quote from Ivankum's last post points out in a glaring and obvious way the central falsehood in this matter:
It is Trinitarians that are not satisfied with the biblical explanation of who Jesus is. Demanding that I explicitly call Jesus God when the Bible does not is not yours or anyone else’s place to do and this is why after 25 years as a Trinitarian; the scales have been removed from my eyes.
I would simply call to your remembrance that Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 22:13. He received worship, which would have been blasphemous, He claimed God as His Father, which in the Pharisees' clear understanding made Him equal with God (John 5:16-20; John 10:25-33). Jesus did not refute these statements; rather, He accepted these words as an accurate assessment. There is so much New Testament evidence of Jesus' identity as God as to overwhelm the space required to state it all.
I have posted on our website at the International House of Prayer Northwest an excerpt from Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology on the Trinity and its necessity. You can access it by clicking here. Please read it, and may the Holy Spirit truly remove the scales from your eyes. Those who are blind and yet think they see are the most blind of all.
Gary Wiens
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Gary, I appreciate your desire to answer according to what you understand, but being student of the Bible for over 30 years; it has become increasingly simpler for me to spot when the text of scripture is being misrepresented.
ReplyDeleteThe Alpha and Omega/the beginning and the end In the book of Revelations are speaking of Jesus as a human person. God has no beginning, nor end. Jesus Christ is the firstborn of God's spiritual creation, the last Adam and it is an assumption that the Lord's reference to Himself being "which was" as being anything other than "which was" during His atoning ministry.
Objectively speaking, every single Christian during the first three centuries of the Christian church were all saved without confessing the Trinity. Historically, Constantine's involvment was politically motivated in what was a very dark time of spiritual enlightenment for people such as himself. History is clear that Constantine was the central figure in orchestrating the council of Nicene and history is also clear that his salvation at the time was questionable.
With all due respect Gary, I have entered God's kingdom through the only door available; and that is Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. For you or anyone else to judge that as not a valid confession because I refuse extra-biblical terminology; then I'll let you answer to God for why the same confession the first 300 years of Christianity professed is not good enough.
Let's look at Galatians 1:8-9; quote:
"8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Galatians 1 NAS
Where did Paul, or any of the other Apostles ever use the term "Trinity" in their gospel message? Where did they ever use the term "God the Son" in their gospel message? Where did any of Jesus' disciples ever employ the phrase "eternal generation" in their gospel message? These are "different gospel" words Gary and this is the undisputable truth.
What you are demanding of souls is your "interpretation", and I am asserting word for word scripture. In all honesty, who is pushing a gospel contrary to what the Apostles preached? The formulated teaching of the Trinity was not even a part of the Apostlic church, so I cannot give infallible credit to the 3rd century creeds that sought to change the words of scripture.
Faith in the Trinity is completely unnecessary for one's salvation and this antiquated highly faulty doctrine will fall and great will be it's fall.
Amen!! I am so tired of "hiding" in the church. My husband and I have never believed that Jesus is God but rather the only begotten Son of God. We have confessed Romans 10:9 &10. We believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed that He is our Lord and Saviour, thou shalt be saved PERIOD. Nothing else. We are afraid to speak our convictions in the church for fear of backlash. God bless you for speaking up!
ReplyDeleteiwankum, it appears to me that Theresa has captured, in brief, what is really at issue here, the divinity of Jesus. You stated in one of your earlier posts,
ReplyDelete"It is Trinitarians that are not satisfied with the biblical explanation of who Jesus is. Demanding that I explicitly call Jesus God when the Bible does not is not yours or anyone else’s place to do and this is why after 25 years as a Trinitarian; the scales have been removed from my eyes."
I am what I suppose you would call a "Trinitarian" and have been for over 40 years. I am not demanding anything from you, you answer to God not to me. And I am quite satisfied with the Biblical explanation of who Jesus is. It's your interpretations I'm not satisfied with. I will, however, let the text of Scripture correct your assertion that the Bible does not call Jesus God.
Heb 1:6-10 (NAS)
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
8But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
10And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Having now read all of your posts, I am exhausted, and confident that you are unlikely to persuade many that your Oneness faith is the real truth. I find your faith, as you have described it, to be the one requiring many theological gymnastics.
My choice for the remainder of my time on this earth will be to build relationship with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and let Him reveal Himself to me. I think I am finished building intellectual frameworks to support heavy theological constructs. I believe that God has revealed Himself to me as 3 persons but if I have not heard Him correctly, He is welcome to correct me.
I decided 32 years ago in Bible College that Jesus is both God and man even if my human mind cannot reconcile all of the apparent contradictions this may generate. I’m sorry to say that your many, many words have not persuaded me otherwise. Since God’s ways are not my ways and His thoughts are not my thoughts, I am ok with not understanding everything about God.
It has been 33 years since my 25 years as a Trinitarian Russ and I consider my few posts on this blog as miniscule, and find those here crying about being exhausted from reading them need to have their spiritual senses exercised if they complain about having to read such a short recap in light of the vast volumes of Trinitarian attempts to cover their faulty reasoning.
ReplyDeleteI have no “interpretations” for you Russ. The scripture says God is One, therefore Oneness is a Word of scripture, not an interpretation (Deut.4:6). “Trinitarianism”, on the other hand; is a doctrine that needed to be named by an invention of man according to Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation; and that speaks volumes to me.
So, it really is a shame that my short posts here exhaust you Russ, but don’t blame me for getting excited about understanding God’s Word. Your faith has reams of Trinitarian gymnastics, volumes and volumes of attempts to justify its confusion; so you might want to consider Hebrews 1 in light of all the commentary out there; if the words of scripture are not being changed.
If you think Hebrews 1 is calling the man Christ God, then your assertion in Hebrews 1 does not answer for why it says God has a God in verse 9 and I have simply stated that this kind of polytheistic conclusion your interpretation demands doesn’t give Trinitarians ground to judge the salvation of non-Trinitarians. I expect many who read my comments to remain a Trinitarian, but understand this; that is not the concern of those who object here of the erroneous judgment of those you disagree with not being truly saved for not being Trinitarians.
cont...
cont...
ReplyDeleteMy objective has been to show others like you Russ, that our conscience sees the discrepancies in your Trinitarian assumptions in verses like Hebrews 1 and our issue is standing up for our faith against those who covet removing their responsibility to discern the Lord’s body when they exclude them from the body of Christ. I do not have a doctrine that cannot be called by Words of scripture, so I do not have to worry about such an error.
The Bible is clearly monotheistic and God does not have a God. You are reading deity into the human person of Christ in this text, confusing the humanity of Christ with the Deity that is dwelling IN HIM and I cannot in all good conscience do that. On the other hand, the scripture explicitly teaches that we can worship God in the human face of Jesus Christ and so I will address God as God; when I speak to Him in Christ (II Cor.4:6).
I see both the human person and the fullness of God “in Him” when I see Jesus Christ. You, on the other hand need to come to terms with the fact that the Bible does not call God “3 divine persons”. The sin of Trinitarian leaders is, that they go around telling those in their church to deny the salvation of other saints who cannot, IN ALL GOOD CONSCIENCE; call God what the Bible does not. The Trinitarian claim to not be teaching “another Jesus” when they need ANOTHER WORD to explain Jesus is blatant hypocrisy.
The early church was historically saved by not call God a Trinity AT ALL and we see that the gates of hell did not prevail against His church. This is a historical fact, that without the terminology of the man-made doctrine of the Trinity; it didn’t exist. God’s people are learning to lean on the actual Words of scripture, in these last days; and it has a lot of Trinitarian leaders worried. Antiquated creeds are going bye-bye and God’s Spirit is confirming who are His as we hide His Word in our hearts.
So, I don’t have to take it personal that another is not persuaded by anything I share Russ, because I rest in God doing what He wants to do with you. However, come, come Russ; don’t let your personal desire to adhere to that doctrine make you miss the cry in Theresa’s post and the suffering she has endured at the hands of her brethren. These things ought not to be so in Christ’s body.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for this post. I have downloaded your excerpt on systematic theology and have been through quite a bit of it. I also might add that this teaching goes right along with my current studies in The Word of Life, The Cross of Christ, and The Bible itself..
As I read the responses to your post, I truly want to jump in to defend the "Trinity" as I know it, and could very well put up a great argument in doing so,,, I suspend my thoughts and leave you with one comment which could lead anyone truly looking for the truth of the "Trinity" to a right understanding..The comment is: "You Will Know The End From The Beginning" If a person would study the ancient Hebrew language they would see that Jesus was in the beginning in Genesis "at the beginning..
Be Blessed Gary and please continue on with the great teachings of truth that you bring to all of those that listen..
Larry Dammerman
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
ReplyDeleteCol 2:6-10 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
ReplyDeleteAbove me in some of the previous comments I had seen something that bothered me.. jawankum made a comment:
ReplyDelete"Objectively speaking, every single Christian during the first three centuries of the Christian church were all saved without confessing the Trinity."
If this were true, then why would Paul continually speak of " In Him,and through Him"
Col 1:13-20 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
This staement in Col 1:13-20 is a sublime staement of the absolute supremacy of Jesus Christ in creation and redemption, in the universe and the church. At the same time it is
aptly addressed to the Colossian heritics who seem to have taught the existence of angelic intermediaries, (thrones,powers,rulers,authorities), between the Creator and "material creation", and may have suggested that Jesus was one of them. Paul would not have this.... His emphasis is on 'all things', and expression he uses five times,, which usually means the cosmos, but here evidently includes principalities and powers. All things were created by God 'in', 'through',and 'for' Christ (v16). He is 'before' all things in time and rank, and 'in' Him all things are sustained and integrated (v17). -John R.W.Stott-
I also wanted to point out a scripture (From Acts 20:28) Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
So I ask, "Who's Blood"??? It says God's Blood, which is also stated numerous times in the Bible, "The Blood of Christ"..
God, Holy Spirit, Christ,,,, one in the same, a triune Godhead, from the beginning and forever.....
Larry D.
After reading Wayne Grudem's The Importance of the Trinity I am amazed that any spirit filled Chrisitan can't see the holes in his logic and lack of true scriptural understanding of the nature of God (is he really saved?). According to his bio he was educated at Harvard, Westminster Theological Seminary, and the University of Cambridge. Not really bastions of Spirit filled education. Lots of head knowledge, dogma and humanistic thinking.
ReplyDeleteWG apparently doesn't think that Jesus was merely a created being.
What about Romans 5:15
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (NIV)
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of (A)the one (B)the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by (C)the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (NAS)
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (KJV)
Seems to me that it pretty clearly states that Jesus was a man.
Also Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (NIV 2010)
Hmm Wayne G can't see how Jesus could be a created being...Well scripture says he was. So I guess WG's beliefs are contrary to scripture.
And the part about Jesus being "fully God" Nowhere does it say that in scripture. Is says that he was the IMAGE of the invisible God (Col 1:15), God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in him (Col 1:19)
Oh yeah one more thing how can Jesus be the firstborn of all creation if he isn't a created being.
Gary you really need to reconsider what you are using to establish your doctrine. This guy is really not scriptural.
I would like to respond with a few excerpts from one of my favorite communicators of the scriptures.
ReplyDelete"If Jesus was not God in human flesh, Christianity is EXPLODED", "We are left with just another religion with some beautiful ideas and noble ethics; it's unique distinction has gone". -John Stott-
In his excellent book "Basic Christianity" John Stott goes on to express how we communicate with one another most easily through speech, specifically through words is how we communicate our thoughts, the intent of our hearts, what is on our mind, this is even more true of God. He has chosen to reveal his INFINITE mind to our finite mind. If, as Isaiah has said, "His thoughts are not ours, as they are higher than than the heavens," the only way we could know them then is if He clothed them in words. So, the prophets throughout the age spoke, until at last..."The Word of the Lord came to us" John 1:1,14 "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
"The good news of the gospel is not just confined to a declaration of what God has spoken,it also confirms that God has acted."--Stott.
The study of the Theanthropos is the beginning to the answer of the question Cur Deus Homo...which has been studied from the days of the upper room..."why did God become human?"
To answer this you must first seek. God's chief complaint against man is that he doesn't seek...if you come honestly to this question you will find that the study of Christ is very unsettling, and inconvenient to our pet, comfortable ideologies...I leave you with another great resource to further your search:
The Word of Life, by Thomas C. Oden. Great armchair read!
God said, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jer 29:13) I take God's word at face value. The only requisite for finding the truth about Him is a sincere heart that seeks to know Him. Nothing else is required, save His word of course. Jesus exhorted us to have faith as likened to a child's, simple and pure.
ReplyDeleteIn Genesis I, it says, God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. For example, Gen 1:21 - "God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good." In Gen 1:26, it says - "Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Then, in Hebrews 1:10, it says - "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands." If Genesis says God created all things while it says "Let Us...", and later in the Bible, Hebrews says Jesus laid the foundation of the earth, then by simple logic, one can easily deduce that Jesus is God. Moreover, the Bible comes right out and says it in John 1:1-2 & 14,18 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten GOD who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
Now, can God the Son have God the Father as His God? Apparently, so, because the Bible says so in Hebrews 1:9 - "Therefore God, Your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions." But does this mean God the Father and God the Son are separate from one another, each requiring separate worship? The Bible says no, because in Deuteronomy 5:7, it says - "You shall have no other Gods before Me." This lends to the fact that they are mysteriously and marvelously one, yet separate at the same time. We in our current state of limited understanding cannot fully comprehend it. We must simply accept the fact, because the Bible says so. To try to dissect this mystery by simplifying it so we can grasp it somehow is wrong. But one day, we will understand fully, as it says in Corinthians 13:12 - "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."
The Bible clearly attests the deity of Christ and the mystery of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit being congruently one and separate at the same time.
To my unitarian friends, don't exhaust your energy trying to convince Gary (or any trinitarian); in my opinion, you're better off giving a list of books you've read which the trinitarian would find challenging.
ReplyDeleteGary, here are the books I've read:
"The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound" (Anthony Buzzard)
"Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian" (Anthony Buzzard)
"Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament" by Jason David BeDuhn
Verses Commonly Used in Attempt to Support the Doctrine of the Trinity (or the deity of Jesus), and why they don't http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=170
"One God [YaHWeH] & One Lord: Reconsidering the 'Cornerstone' of the Christian Faith (three authors)
"They Never Told Me THIS in Church" (Greg S. Deuble)
“The True Believer's Defense Against Charges Preferred by Trinitarians for Not Believing in the Divinity of Christ, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc” (Charles Morgridge, 1837)
I'm sorry you think it's "crucial" that Jesus be God for Christianity's sake; I think it's crucial he's NOT God for Christianity's sake, so let's steer clear of opinions and implications which hold zero value, and stick strictly to BIBLE PROOF and VALID, LOGICAL ARGUMENTS with as little subjection as possible. (But, to adhere to my advice, I'm not going to exhaust myself with such a debate; it only leads to frustration.)
ReplyDeleteafter reading all of these comments and looking up the scripture refs- i believe that Jesus is fully man and fully god more than ever! thank you everyone! after sharing Jesus with mormons, jehovah’s witnesses, and just recently to muslims and jews I have realized that what we believe about his death/resurrection is a major crossroad to if we are living in truth or not. i have never realized before that the divinity of Jesus held such debate as well.
ReplyDeleteIncredible
ReplyDelete« on: November 25, 2010, 08:54:05 AM » Quote
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Trinitarians believe some incredible things ---
The following things I find incredible ---
That anyone could accept a doctrine that would have been abhorent to all of the monotheistic Jews of Christ’s time.
That anyone would accept a doctrine who’s prime doctrinal statement was imposed (by threat of banishment or death) on the church by a sun worshipping priest Roman Emperor.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires non-scriptural words to describe it.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that causes a separation between man and God or his chosen example for man.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires the character of God to change from non-temptable to temptable or not capable of sin to capable of sin.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires the eternal unchanging God to change from immortal God to mortal man.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires humanity to use a hybrid, and therefore non-human, as an example.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that must be explained or defined by calling it a mystery.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that cannot be proven by honest Biblical interpretation processes.
That any rational person or especially a Bible Teacher would support a doctrine they can neither explain honestly through scripture or define outside of implication, innuendo and mystery.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that is filled with Greek Philosophical thinking and examples.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies and ignores hundreds of clear scriptures that define Jesus as man. Not an augmented or hybrid man but simply human.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that hinders the hope we can have by seeing a normal human being actually become perfect, whole and complete as God’s plan intended for all of us.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies the hope we receive from seeing a normal human being raised from the dead.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies us the perfect example of a normal human being becoming one with God.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies us the fellowship of an elder brother from which we can receive advice based on his own totally normal experience as a human being made just like us.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that Mary, a human woman, could have conceived anything other then a human being or that she be the mother of God.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires three equals one. 3=1.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that is anti-Christ in that it is anti the anointed one because no God requires an anointing.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that the co-equal God the Son somehow be subservient to God the Father. Totally irrational!
That anyone would accept a doctrine that teaches that a pre-existent being with memories and experiences can lose all of that and be born a human infant. What happened to those experiences and memories? Totally irrational!
That anyone would accept a doctrine that teaches that Mary was with child of the third person of the Trinity and yet that child calls the first person of the Trinity “father”.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that one being (Jesus) is both fully God and fully man and therefore can be both temptable and non temptable or mortal and immortal all at the same time.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that produces no positive fruit or functional purpose and does nothing to move humanity along in God’s plan. Could there be a more clear definition of Greek/Christian philosophy. Totally useless.
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ReplyDeleteTrinitarians believe some incredible things ---
The following things I find incredible ---
That anyone could accept a doctrine that would have been abhorent to all of the monotheistic Jews of Christ’s time.
That anyone would accept a doctrine who’s prime doctrinal statement was imposed (by threat of banishment or death) on the church by a sun worshipping priest Roman Emperor.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires non-scriptural words to describe it.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that causes a separation between man and God or his chosen example for man.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires the character of God to change from non-temptable to temptable or not capable of sin to capable of sin.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires the eternal unchanging God to change from immortal God to mortal man.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires humanity to use a hybrid, and therefore non-human, as an example.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that must be explained or defined by calling it a mystery.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that cannot be proven by honest Biblical interpretation processes.
That any rational person or especially a Bible Teacher would support a doctrine they can neither explain honestly through scripture or define outside of implication, innuendo and mystery.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that is filled with Greek Philosophical thinking and examples.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies and ignores hundreds of clear scriptures that define Jesus as man. Not an augmented or hybrid man but simply human.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that hinders the hope we can have by seeing a normal human being actually become perfect, whole and complete as God’s plan intended for all of us.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies the hope we receive from seeing a normal human being raised from the dead.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies us the perfect example of a normal human being becoming one with God.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that denies us the fellowship of an elder brother from which we can receive advice based on his own totally normal experience as a human being made just like us.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that Mary, a human woman, could have conceived anything other then a human being or that she be the mother of God.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires three equals one. 3=1.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that is anti-Christ in that it is anti the anointed one because no God requires an anointing.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that the co-equal God the Son somehow be subservient to God the Father. Totally irrational!
That anyone would accept a doctrine that teaches that a pre-existent being with memories and experiences can lose all of that and be born a human infant. What happened to those experiences and memories? Totally irrational!
That anyone would accept a doctrine that teaches that Mary was with child of the third person of the Trinity and yet that child calls the first person of the Trinity “father”.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that requires that one being (Jesus) is both fully God and fully man and therefore can be both temptable and non temptable or mortal and immortal all at the same time.
That anyone would accept a doctrine that produces no positive fruit or functional purpose and does nothing to move humanity along in God’s plan. Could there be a more clear definition of Greek/Christian philosophy. Totally useless.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete---That is basically what I am saying about anyone anywhere in any church even non-trinitarian. That is, if RCC individuals can be truly saved so can Pentecostals who have rejected the trin doctrine. Doctrine does not save. No church or group can claim perfect doctrine. We may reject the doctrines of other churches but we are wrong if we reject those churches from God's saving grace because "we know something they don't know."
ReplyDelete---The trinity is hideous and one of Satan's profound deceptions.
1) it obscures the Logos & plan of God in Christ the 2nd Adam. Reading the NT and noting everywhere you see Image & Likeness vast revelations unfold that are completely lost if Christ is the 2nd person of the trinity. The entire plan of God in Christ is warped.
2) the trinity stunts man's searching out of God because he is taught God is a mystery. If God cannot be understood, why even try? However, if one understands God from the Biblical view God has given us revelation about Himself to be understood and experienced. The 1,000 lb lid is off the well of refreshing revelatory water and there is no end to the quest for God.
3) the trinity makes God one of many pagan pluralities. The subtile similiarities may be only subconscious but I believe they are very real and make God a cartoon character. Imagine 3 persons holding council...Or voting among themselves who should appear on earth as the messiah...or other nonsense...
---I am glad that many are seeing the truth and coming into much revelation about God.
---When someone has been born again and accepted Christ as their savior they DO NOT need to become doctrinally pure according to some church's shibboleth. This idea that our group is saved but you are not is such a crock. RCC believe this...so do the Church of Christ...and so do some oneness...and so do some Pentecostals...and the list goes on.
ReplyDelete---I do not accept that there is some "church" authority who can pass judgment on every group or person in the world as to whether or not they are "orthodox." Good Grief!!!
---I claim a Divine touch of heaven that transfromed my life. And I also claim to gloriously see that God is one and not a pagan trinity. I also claim to have sat under anointed teachers. Who judges me?
---One person's orthodoxy is another person's heresy. And who pray tell is the final authority to judge???
---I do not owe the historic creeds one penny. Such false teaching should be exposed for what it is...the teaching of men.
---If I define my beliefs completely from Scripture, who misleads me?
Doesn't a requirement that one intellectually accept the trinity or any of the historic creeds qualify as "works based righteousness?" That is, why is belief in this or that doctrine a basis for one's salvation?
ReplyDelete---Obviously belief in something is a requirement. However, once someone has accepted the Gospel message of Christ dying for our sins and been baptized where do we find any further Scriptural requirement for doctrinal accuracy?
---Why do I have to accept creeds written by men centuries after the Bible was written? Why can't I just believe the Bible? Why do I need someone else to interpret it for me?
---Isn't our interpretation of the Bible based upon our own study, i e works?
---Is everyone "led by the Spirit" when they study? Or is everyone subject to their own bias, intellect & willingness? Doesn't everyone claim the truth?
---I believe salvation comes by grace through faith not beliefs through study.
Hi gary,
ReplyDeleteTotally off the conversation but would you please share with me the Catholic Theologian you mentioned in your talk Glory of the Father who writes about The Glory of God. I would like to know who this is as I need to help in this area. Thanks.
Tim Wright
tim@twright.co.uk